Anatomy of a Software Update + 700p Maintenance Release Info

Product managers like me have needed a place to communicate with Palm customers and fans about what's happening at Palm, and now we have it with the new Palm blog! We're looking forward to future blogging and to reading your feedback and comments.

One of the hot topics on the Palm/Treo community forums has been about software updates and I noticed that folks often wonder why we can quickly post a patch for some issues, but others sometimes take a full ROM/firmware update and take more time to deliver. Let's look at a couple examples...

Shortly after the release of the Treo 680 smartphone, it was discovered that using the camera could cause an excessive battery drain on the device. We quickly diagnosed the problem and figured out that a small change to the camera application could solve the problem. We cranked out the updated app, wrapped it up in an installer and got quick approval from the carrier to post it. Case closed, but how could it happen so fast? Two reasons - it was a small change limited to one app, and that one app happened to be a component that we could replace with a new version in user storage. Since the change was localized and didn't touch any of the radio/telephony software, we could push out a patch quickly.

Now maintenance releases (MRs) are a different story. When we release a MR that replaces the ROM image and radio firmware on a Treo, the process becomes more rigorous and requires more steps than a patch. Once you start mucking with complex components like the radio, power management or the file system, then you are way beyond a patch. Case in point: we started working on Bluetooth improvements for the Treo 700p as a patch so we could get it out quickly. More than a few months into the effort we decided that a patch wasn't going to work because the changes touched too many other components - we'd need to build it into a full MR.

MRs are usually big efforts - the deeper into the wireless functions we dig, the more careful we need to be to avoid breaking something else and the more testing Palm and the carriers have to do. So when we do an MR, we try to make it count. That means we batch together a number of changes that come from a variety of sources - call centers, online forums, carriers, retail stores, etc. Once Palm is done with the MR development work, we beta test the software internally and externally, run through pre-certification checklists, and hand the MR to the carrier for final certification and potentially a final round of changes.

We're now in the carrier certification phase with the Treo 700p MR and as I type this, our best estimate of customer release will be the week of May 28th. In addition to the Bluetooth improvements I mentioned above, the 700p MR includes updates to SMS send/receive performance, MP3 playback, phone app launch speed and other areas. It's admittedly been a much longer project than expected, but we're almost there...

Thanks for reading,

Steve Sinclair

Treo Product Manager

Update:

We have been reading through everyone's comments on the 700p maintenance release update and I wanted to answer some of the recurring questions that have been brought up:

• Why didn't you mention the lag in your blog? "The lag" is a broad term that could mean any of number of symptoms customers have reported, so it would have been a mistake for me to make a blanket statement like "the lag is fixed" or "the lag is not fixed." We've implemented specific mitigations that will benefit some of you: launching the phone app should be faster, we've lessened the occurrence of SMS sending delays and we addressed a problem that was causing the multi-second delays when launching/exiting the browser.
• Will this MR make the device more stable? The short answer is "yes" in most cases, but I can't list every situation where we've made changes or quantify the improvement since each person's device setup is different.
• What are the Bluetooth improvements? We've improved overall stability to Bluetooth pairing and connections. When the MR goes live, we're going to publish an updated list of Bluetooth accessories that are compatible with the Treo 700p + MR software.
• Why don't you share the MR release notes? In this blog and some of my previous correspondence to the Palm community, I've referred to the most discussed issues. Our standard policy has been to not publish an itemized list, but to disclose the top issues that are addressed by the MR when the MR goes live on our web site.

We know that a number of you are frustrated and appreciate that you've all taken the time to share your feedback, and apologies for taking a bit to respond to that feedback.

Comments

[AJ0230]

I realize that theres only 3 subjects on the blog so far but not once has someone from Palm responded to any of the comments.

Steve, I appreciate the update on the update but seriously a year?

I read your post and I understand that you tried to fix the BT issue right away, first, how did you guys not see that in your initial beta testing?

How much did the rollout of 5-6 new phones in the past year hurt the development of this MR?

It bothers me to no end that the 700P is going EOL after ONLY a year and there is a replacement for it. How is this MR coming out right around the same time that the 755 is coming out? How is that even fathomable?

The more I type the angrier Im getting.

Bottom line I do appreciate Steve coming out and posting but its rediculous how all this is turning out.

[NMS]

Dear Steve,

Two words:: "Hello RIM!"

I'm the owner of a small business that has 50+ 700p's deployed across our sales force. Your update on the blog today has finaly convinced me that PALM doesn't care about it customers, but about it's investors. Palm has made it CLEAR that they are more interested in launching newer products than supporting current customers.

I am a longtime loyal Palm user, and was under the impression that we were deploying the "Lexus" of smartphones -- unfortunately we ended up with these untested, semi-functional imports instead.

How does PALM not understand that the Cost of Ownership for the 700p has become astronomical. Not only did we pay a PREMIUM price for our phones, but our IT department wastes more time teaching employees how to perform "Soft" and "Hard" resets, supporting blue tooth issues, and performing product replacements through Sprint than I care to admit.

Palm has had more than adequate time to respond to these problems and issue patches, ROM upgrades, or hardware replacements to alternative palm models -- but has chosen to do NOTHING.

Palm will never sell me, or my business, another phone again. Tomorrow we will bring in our Sprint reps to begin discussing replacing our 700p's with a Blackberry solution.

I would suggest to others in this forum to send your negative experiences with Palm to the Wall Street Journal wsj.ltrs@wsj.com . Palm may choose not to answer it's customers demands, but they will respond to their shareholder demands, or they will suffer severe financial consequences.

Sincerely,

A New RIM Customer

[Tom Bodoh]

You left out a major step in the release. Denial. For months 700P owners were told that problems were due to third party software. It makes one question whether Palm staff actually own 700P's.

[Merlyn 3D]

Steve,

I have also been plagued by the bluetooth issues with several of the "Palm Approved" headsets actually reseting the phone on an incoming call, but that isn't why I'm writing this.

I'm writing this because everybody at Palm responsible for the 700p needs to be made aware of several key facts. I'm writing this to you in hopes that you'll read it because I would like you to know that you have lost a customer. And in losing a customer, you have lost 10 more potential customers.

Facts:
-By May 28th, many of our 700p's will be out of warranty, so if we flash the phone and it screws up, we're screwed

-It's been an entire year. The 700p is being EOL'd by Sprint in May in lieu of the 755p. Many of us have had to live with the price of this "shared platform" between windows mobile and Palm. For the ENTIRE life cycle of the 700p on Sprint, we have not received the features that were advertised to us, the two biggest being bluetooth and mp3 playback.

-Getting Palm to even acknowledge anything was a chore. It took us 6-7 months to even make you guys aware of these issues, which you should have easily caught in your months of beta testing.

-We've had to deal with the bugs caused by this supposed "shared platform", why won't we be able to reap the benefits with this upcoming Linux-based OS? I assume we'll have to buy an entirely new device for that.

-Your tech support STILL won't acknowledge the bugs you confirmed exist in the 700p when you call them up to open a trouble ticket. It's been almost a YEAR, what's wrong here?

-You openly said your "power-users" make up a small (and what we read as insignificant) portion of your customer base. What you failed to realize is that many of your "power-users" are tech consultants to clients, family, friends, etc. and that by losing them, you lost all those potential customers you could have sold Treos to. I, for one, will no longer be recommending Treos as I used to to friends, family, or clients. I cannot trust that the company will fix any issues that crop up in a timely manner, or provide the communication or support I and others have become accustomed to from other companies such as Apple.

And the problems I've had with the company continue from there...

I was the one, I don't know if you're aware or not, who had the pre-release of the 700p whose photo showed up on one of the forums at TreoCentral. When I called Sprint to activate it before even purchasing it, I MADE SURE the ESN was clear (as in NOT stolen) and they activated it just fine, so I paid $650 to buy it. 3 Days later I get a knock on my door from a security worker at Palm who lets me know the phone was taken from Palm and that they need it back. I complied 100%, and did everything in my power to give Palm the names, addresses, phone numbers and ways to track down this leak, but I never received any further communication after that despite the fact that I tried to maintain some sort of open communication and offered to help. When the 700p was released, I had to pay full price for it again. That's twice now that I've paid for a 700p, and for a year I've had to deal with all these issues. I've had no communication from Palm, and it seems the only time I've gotten any sort of attention from them, it was the wrong kind. Palm did nothing of the sort to acknowledge that I had 1) lost money and a treo 700p by giving the pre-production one back, 2) give me some sort of a "thank you" or any sort of communication, and 3) I had to pay once again for a device that I really really wanted. Now while I realize Palm may have not been obligated to do any of this, it reflects very poorly on a corporations image to not take care of their loyal customers.

Today my disdain for this company seems to really run deep. I've lost over $1000 on them and one year later I still don't have one device that works to its advertised potential. This is why your company has such a terrible track record for support in the past couple years. Everyone has seen this, everyone has experienced it for themselves by buying a 700p, and you have failed to take care of your own customers.

I have NEVER been treated so poorly by a corporation or company in my life after spending so much money on them. This is why, Mr. Sinclair and the rest of Palm, despite your post on the blog here today, you have lost a customer.

PS - it wouldn't have hurt to actually give us an official list of what's being fixed in the update. Don't you think that at the very very least we would deserve that much?

[Brian]

Man! May 28th. Thats about a year after I purchased my 3rd Treo the 700p. I purchased it knowing that there may be a couple bugs but felt confident Palm would deliver and correct any issues that arouse. Well a year later is unacceptable, although I'm glad its finally coming. However I have purchased my last Palm product due the the lackluster support for the 700p. You have some serious ground to make up to bring your past hardcore loyalist back to the table. I'm hoping the update is a good start to that.

[Easy]

Wow... Who's moderating these comments? We may have to start censoring these comments!! Palm you are taking a lot of fire for the 700p. Palm users are painting an ugly picture on palm! IMO, your a revolutionary company that poses a threat to apple! let's not scare these people into buying an iphone! Moderate these comments! I love my 700p!!

[Scott Boydman]

I welcome this MR for the 700p (Verizon). I have experienced all the aforementioned problems. In fact, the lag issues occur while I am on a call to a voicemail system. I often experience a significant delay (> 10 seconds) when trying to send a tone key (i.e. "press '3' to leave a voice message...", which is pretty horrible when trying to use a phone. My device loses responsiveness when the phone's radio is searching for a signal in a weak area, so at work, I have to turn off the phone part of the device in order to be able to have a usable PDA. (I'm a physician and I constantly need to access my drug database application.) These delays are worsened when the wireless sync application is active, but they are still significant even if wireless sync is uninstalled. And spontaneous resets will occur several times weekly. --- In spite of it all, I love the device, the ability to use slingplayer, the data and internet access is all great. The implementation hopefully will be improved by the MR, and if most of the problems are addressed with better performance and stability, it will have been worth the wait. I usually expect to update my devices every couple of years, so hopefully, newer devices will continue to improve (of course, that was my reasoning for getting the 700p over the 650.) :)
And even with the long wait (and you can feel the anger of many of the above users, can't you?), this blog, and its communication, is an important step in maintaining, yes --- even winning back --- the support and loyalty of a very large customer base, so Steve (and Palm), please keep it up! And thanks (in advance...)

[Joeylive]

Steve,
I must echo what a lot of other users have stated above. I am truly please with the more open communication this blog is now allowing. Also, the info on the MR update for the 700p helps. Those are much needed and appreciated changes at Palm.

On the other hand, I too must voice my disappointment in the lack of good management and judgement in the Palm corporate offices. Your organization has truly alienated a great amount of core users and enthusiast. I look forward to the patch and hope it fixes many major issues with a device that seems to have been rushed to market a year before it should have been released. While I am not believing that Palm is going to compensate us for the harm you have done to us in the last year, I would also like to inform you that as of right now I will never buy another Palm device. There is a lot of distrust for your company right now and that distrust translates to a group of people that now would not recommend a device from a company that has neglected its user base for a full year. I and I think many other users will be steering a lot of consumers to some of your competitors devices simply because we cannot support a company that does not support us. In a market that is continuing to show new and innovative devices from more and more companies, that does not help Palm.

[RockyCpa]

I'm glad for the 700P users that they have some hope for their problems. As I wrote before, I have disabled my bluetooth on my 680. It is too undependable to continue with. I am now wired up to the earpiece and my $35,000 Acura TL's handsfree bluetooth goes unused.

I thought I was upgrading from the Cingular 650 but that has not been the case. I think that Cingular 680 came out last fall. Can I at least think there is hope by then?

[700p-MacOS-User]

Steve, Palm,

"our best estimate of customer release will be the week of May 28th."

That sounds like saying $9.95 or $9.99 instead of $10 or June 1st, which falls on Friday of that week:)!!!....

Oh well, beggars can't choose much, or at least not till iPhone will hopefully take this whole Smart Phone "Economy" (note: I no longer say Palm Economy) to a HIGHER LEVEL!!!!

As I've already stated in my previous Comments on this Blog

http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/04/wow.html#comments

The Dial Up Networking, DUN, Tethering on my Verizon Unlimited Data Plan, has been a DISASTER, with the repeated attempts to Connect, and if I eventually get lucky, Lost Connections, then Network Utility (Mac OS, in Utilities Folder) Pinging Google, as work around, to keep me connected as suggested by your Tech Support in Philippines...

Will this 700P MR come with Mac Specific Improvements, like Connection Script, or will we need to use 2 or 3 years old Verizon Support (PC 5220) Script?!!!! I am so tired and UPSET about playing Detective, trying to figure out why The Dial Up Networking, DUN, Tethering with my Mac Laptop, on Verizon doesn't work RELIABLY!!!

After I do a BackupBuddy VFS, 4.1, I get 21 SECONDS WHITE SCREEN DELAY before I can use Web Application, that is if my 700P doesn't Reset itself!!! CLEARLY, you VFS is SUSPECT!!!

HotSync has OFTEN been IFFY!!!!

Palm Desktop for Mac = DEAD END, like HotSync? -- if I remember Palm's statements....

Verizon doesn't even want to talk to Mac Customers... Your Techs in Philippines told me that they got tons of calls from UNHAPPY 700P Customers...

With this MR for 700P, will I lose all my emails that are on my 700P???!

I hope Palm will offer a VERY CLEAR EXPLANATION on this 700P MR!!! Otherwise, your Techs in Philippines are gonna get FLOODED with Calls, and it will be weeks before many of us will be able to get through to them!!!!

Yes, it's nice to see this LONG OVERDUE BLOG, but still...

PALM OWES IT'S 700P USERS A HUGE APOLOGY, 700P UPDATER, and OS UPGRADABILITY -- ALL FREE OF CHARGE!!! IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!

I just looked at SMARTPHONE COMPARISON CHART on Palm's Site:

http://www.palm.com/us/products/compare/

Treo 700p
Palm OS
5.4
(Garnet)

Treo 680
Palm OS
5.4.9

If Palm OS 5.4.9 is in any way better than Palm OS 5.4, Palm should offer all its 700P customers Palm OS 5.4.9 UPGRADE -- ALL FREE OF CHARGE!!! And I mean as a FREE DOWNLOAD or even a CD, with all the LATEST VERSIONS of EVERY BUNDLED SOFTWARE that came with the original 700p. THAT would only begin to approximate a LONG OVERDUE APOLOGY from Palm to its LOYAL CUSTOMERS, who have spent COUNTLESS HOURS playing detective with their 700P devices, which were HALF BAKED, at best!!!

If and when 700P owners who switched to iPhone start letting Palm know that they left Treo's for iPhone, then Palm will FINALLY understand how upset their 700p Customers are...

The Good Thing is that my Previous Posts were not Censored:)! So, maybe Palm Glasnost is for REAL?!

With so many complaints about 700P, it's AMAZING to see Palm not fixing it a LONG TIME AGO!!!

There have been so many sites, with so many 700p complaints. Palm is telling us that they read those sites... So, if this Blog and it's 700p complaints are being read too, what is the difference:)?! UNLESS Palm DOES something, and releases 700P Update -- ALREADY:)!:)!:):!)!!! And, when it does, Palm needs to be very SPECIFIC about what has been FIXED, and offer a way for 700p Customers to not just VENT, but SUBMIT their EXPLICIT FEEDBACK, where Case## are assigned, with FOLLOW UP DIRECT COMMUNITCATIONS, not Web Forms Submission, which are FRUSTRATING, often meant to DEMORALIZE and DISCOURAGE the users from complaining!!!

NOBODY wants to complain!!! People paid top $$ for 700p and in return they got HEADACHES!!! I too was a HUGE PALM FAN, evangelizing Palm CONCEPT to everyone I met... Then, I had to stop, because I didn't want people to feel my AGONY, and COMPLAIN TO ME, expecting tech support etc.

As a MAC USER, I recommend APPLE PRODUCTS to everyone, cause they SIMPLY WORK, and APPLE CARE is there, a phone call away!!!

"Simply Palm" should do SIMPLY BETTER!!!! This 700p Updater Delay, and all these complaints are SIMPLY INEXCUSABLE!!!

PALM OWES IT'S 700P USERS A HUGE APOLOGY, 700P UPDATER, and OS UPGRADABILITY -- ALL FREE OF CHARGE!!! IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!

Hopefully iPhone will put Palm on it's MODEL BEHAVIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you hear me now, Palm?!

TIME STAMP:

I AM POSTING THIS AS OF Tuesday, April 17, 2007 at 11:33 PM, EST, under the same name:

700p-MacOS-User

Hopefully it will get credited to my name and not someone else, as was the case with my previous posts here

http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/04/wow.html#comments

-------------------------------
Here is my Setup:

Treo 700p, Palm Desktop 4.2.2, Mac OS 10.4.9 (all latest updates), Powerbook 17, Verizon, Dial Up Networking "Tethering" via Bluetooth..., if it works...
-------------------------------

[Dave R]

Glad to see a patch to be released.. My biggest question, which I'm sure won't be addressed until release, is after this patch is released, is there really a point to the 755p other that form factor? In theory, the hardware btwn the 755 and 700p are pretty close, are they not? If that's the case, and the 700p becomes a 755 (or vice versa) then EOL on the 700 actually makes sense to me. If its the same device (for the most part) with the same functionallity, it simply offers new customers a well working Treo device in a smaller form factor, while those of us w/ a 700 continue using our device with the same functionallity.

I also wonder - is it possible that this firmware patch could actually be a linux firmware update? I'm sure people will look at this comment and flame or think I'm nuts.... but technically the hardware on the 700p and 700w are identical. It is technically possible to put the 700w firmware on a 700p and vice versa. That said, what would stop palm from taking this Linux variation that they have been working on, for probably over a year in some fashion, and saying - here - this is stable, backwards compatible, and now you have a device that works. If palm does that - in my eyes - all is forgiven and then some. It breathes new life into the device and makes it that much more powerful.

In any event, bravo Palm on the blog and communication with your customers. Just don't go a full week without posting - even if there isn't a specific reason to post - tell a story, make something up - just don't let the blog go by the wayside. Keep us - the customers - involved!

[John]

I am one of the angry lynch mob of 700p owners not-so-patiently waiting for the MR. That anger won't likely dissipate until certain flaws are fixed (hopefully) by the MR, and Palm can likely kiss goodbye any new sales to us, at least for awhile.

However, I do appreciate that Palm has launched this blog - finally - as a way of communicating with the public. It seemed obvious to many 700p owners on various forums that Palm's tight-lipped ostrich act was detrimental to the company. Either they didn't care or were too oblivious to know, neither of which is good for business.

Feel free to blog if the testing goes exceptionally well and the MR release date gets moved up.

Lastly, thank you for leaving reader comments intact, even negative ones. Few things scream "corporate spin" like edited comments (not counting the juvenile or spam posts).

[Kamarat McWashington]

Hi I was curious if there will ever be an unlocked GSM version of the treo 700p. I have to say I am not fond of the menu key relocation on the treo 680. I am also curious on how soon we could see a linux version of the treo and what we can expect from a linux version.

[ChodaBoy]

Wow! Great! Thanks!

My 700p just *might* be corrected enough, after a year of waiting, for me to sell it on Ebay to some other sucker.

I'm sure Steve Jobs is laughing all the way to the bank with Palm's money.

[Bruce Baird]

Steve:

Thank you for the info on the 700p MR status. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the new Palm Blog. It's really great to see your communication to customers/users improve!!

For my Sprint 700p:

I'd be happy if I didn't have random soft resets, especially when clicking onto the Web.

Plus the delay problem of switching between apps, especially the Phone app.

Please also fix the pauses and momentary freezes when playing music, movies, etc.

Casey

[pen]

Alright, your update is going to address SOME issues. What about the entire PDA app launch speed? this phone has got to be atleast 3x SLOWER than my 650 is. Also, are you going to do anything about this locked / protected picturemail crap? Was this intended as some type of horrible feature? I've tried everything, but when you download picturemail pictures [sprint pcs] to your device they are LOCKED and you can not move, assign, modify this images at all. I have important images I downloaded to my phone and now cannot get them off! AND if you try to set a picturemail pic as a contact picture it crashes the phone, this doesn't even begin to make sense. These issues need to be addressed just as much as any of the other 1000+ issues with this smart device [or lack there of]. If we have to wait 10+ months for a software / firmware update, it better damn well be worth the wait.

[pen]

Wait does this MAJOR MR release mean we're going to have to completely destroy the data that already exists on our phones? Because I for one NEED pictures off my phone that I CAN'T GET OFF MY PHONE because of the stupid picturemail protected image bs. Your company is becoming more and more useless as the days tick on. Congrats.

[Adam]

I'll be glad to see this LONG overdue update, but my overall feeling is still... Do you guys test this stuff at all before dumping it on the market?!?!?!? I didn't pay all this money for the privilege of being a beta tester for you... This phone has some glaring issues that severely reduces it's functionality and I just don't understand how if it took you a freakin' YEAR (as it is being EOLed) to fix it, it was released in the first place... Did someone say, "that's close enough, it will take another year for us to get it working correctly, but we need their money now..." I won't make that mistake again...

[brian]

I have to admit, as a longtime Palm user, the problems with my 700p (lag, BT pairing, spontaneous resets) have been frustrating. I sincerely hope Palm steps up and admits your mistakes and do right by your *loyal* and *patient* 700p users. We've had enough excuses. The *long overdue* MR better not miss the May 28 target date, and Palm should really consider an extremely generous trade-in program for 700p owners to upgrade to its successor.

That would go a long way to restore our faith in Palm and prove that you listen to and sincerely care about your loyal Palm OS customer base. It's becoming apparent that Palm is staking its future on the Palm OS and its loyal customers, so you would be doing a disservice to your loyal customers and investors if you don't step up and make this situation right.

Take a look at slides 60 and 64 of the Analyst Day presentation. Who do you think those influencers are? Is this 700p situation building a strong customer relationship? It's time to remedy this situation.

[E. Frederick Pony]

Thanks for the update, it is much appreciated.

Please be proactive and use the blog to notify folks if the schedule slips. :)

[Rick Ingram]

That's great news for the 700P users. Now, how about the alt/gibberish character and loss of signal problem with the 680 that neither Palm nor Cingular will admit to?

[GT]

This is a bunch of nonsense, you mean to tell me that palm new all along that there was a desperate need to update the bt and yet continued to sell this so called smartphone 700p. This shows a complete disregard to customer satisfaction and it is a direct admission of marketing lies. Whenever I call tech support with bt issue they claimed that this is news to them, you blog contradicts that. I will gladly send this phone back to palm for a refund today, I promise never to buy another palm product and advice my friends and company never to buy a palm product so they would never become paying beta testers. Palm, you blew it.

[Todivefor]

Glad to hear an update is coming, although a "little" late. I have been a Palm customer for many years and finally combined my PDA and phone with the 700p (on the first day of the release). I have been pretty happy with my device, but have experienced many if not all the problems described in many of the forums for the past year. Just yesterday it took me 3 tries to reach Sprint Customer Service (the third from a landline). Each time as I finally got a live person, the phone crapped out.

I will never be the first to jump on the Palm bandwagon again. I will watch the forums until the device becomes stable. Unfortunately for the 700p it might be at "end of life" when this ocurrs.

[Dallas Hinton]

I appreciate hearing the "regular" updates on the "progress" of the fixes for my 700p. I'd appreciate it more if I actually believed it was happening.
My #1 issue with this device is the now routine reset that happens when the phone rings. My #2 issue is the also routine "caller can't hear me" when the phone doesn't reset on ring.
My #3 issue is that it takes 6 months (yes, almost to the day) before the phone is available in Canada (Telus), which means that I probably won't be able to apply your patch/MR when/if it is finally released!

I'm here to tell you that if the MR does NOT fix the problems, and/or if I can't apply the MR when it's released by PALM, you'll have lost yet another customer - along with my wife and daughter.

It's a pretty shabby way to treat customers, some of us who have been users since M505 days and earlier.